[MC-34649] Glass panes, stained glass and ice show the texture in all faces

Stained glass, stained glass panes and ice show the texture in all their face, unlike it happens with normal glass/normal panes/ice in 13w39. I attach some photos (the last is 13w39 snapshot, with ice being correctly displayed)

Linked issues

is duplicated by 1

MC-34720 Stained glass shows all sides of texture Resolved

relates to 3

MC-169969 The back faces of spawners do not render Resolved

MC-171859 The back faces of leaves do not render Resolved

MC-34751 Backface culling should not be used improperly Closed

Attachments

Comments 22

insomniac_lemon 2013-10-10T20:22:28Z

NOT a bug, this is a nice feature (no backface culling). The only issue here is that glass doesn't have the same feature.

_zombiehunter 2013-10-11T12:11:43Z

@Alan Scheinbaum:
"Works as inteded". Making all sides of glass and ice visible is one of the main purposes of fixing MC-1379. Btw, it doesn't even look bad (quite the opposite, it looks more realistic by far). As insomniac_lemon said, the only issue here is that normal glass blocks still don't show all sides (see MC-34751).

_zombiehunter 2013-10-12T14:26:00Z

Now even dev confirmed as "Won't fix":
https://twitter.com/Dinnerbone/status/388829446796742656

It's intended to see transparent textures through transparent textures now (can't-see-water-through-ice-bug as Dinnerbone calls it >> nothing else than MC-1379).
Anyone please resolve this.

Alan Scheinbaum 2013-10-12T15:38:05Z

@zombie hunter
I think that there are two issues here:
1. Glass doesn't has this feature. Or add it to glass, or remove it to stained glass.
2. Glass panes NEED backface culling. I mean, they are thin, so both faces look too close to other, it's not nice.

eleazzaar 2013-10-12T16:36:05Z

I like it this way better. Not a bug-- it's a good feature.

12 more comments

_zombiehunter 2013-10-12T17:00:39Z

@Alan Scheinbaum
1. The inconsistency of stained glass with normal glass blocks was already reported here: MC-34751
2. That's a design problem of glass panes. If the panes would still look like before (thin, not box-like), this problem wouldn't occur.
This has to be fixed by changing the design of glass panes, not by reverting the fix of MC-1379 and messing up the appearance of all other transparent blocks.

Jesper the End 2013-10-12T21:16:48Z

this bug is not about seeing translucent blocks behind other translucent blocks. but about the fact that translucent blocks show textures on all sides

_zombiehunter 2013-10-12T21:32:42Z

@Jesper the End:
Can you please explain why this is a bug and in what way this is different from MC-1379 ?
Also, ice blocks and stained glass look far better when being able to see all sides. To change this (making the rear textures invisible again), they need to revert the fix of MC-1379, and Dinnerbone already twittered they won't do that: https://twitter.com/Dinnerbone/status/388829446796742656
>>> WON'T FIX

Jesper the End 2013-10-12T21:37:04Z

yes, it is indeed a duplicate

but what I mean to say is, dinnerbone is talking about water being visible behind ice and not about textures being visible on all sides (or maybe I misunderstood him)

_zombiehunter 2013-10-12T21:41:58Z

Dinnerbone is referring to MC-1379 which was also the reason why the textures were not visible on all sides. After the fix of that, you can see all transparent textures through each other, even the rear textures of the same block.

Jesper the End 2013-10-13T07:16:46Z

hmm okay, if you say so

insomniac_lemon 2013-10-17T20:00:12Z

Dinnerbone, why?

This issue says that these blocks doesn't have backface culling, as if it is a bug. Sure, it could've been, but this issue did not state any reasons why old functionality should be returned.

In the related issue (34751) I covered the OTHER side of the issue, that is this new change for stained glass should be for regular glass as well. Not only did I explain WHY I feel this way, I also explained a way that you could make it based on a resource pack so it could be pack-specific instead of a hard-coded game value.

This issue has 2 sides. Some people like backface culling, and some people hate it. I personally hate it, because it reduces visibility of where glass is, especially on large square structures, especially when the glass is enclosed, causing only 1 side to be visible.

Jesper the End 2013-10-17T20:12:20Z

woohoo! please keep it this way

insomniac_lemon 2013-10-17T22:13:50Z

No, just no.

Backface culling does not belong on everything. It is meant as something to not render things you aren't going to see anyways and that's how it should be used.

This issue was fixed by Dinnerbone just making everything use backface culling. This has completely broken water. You can no longer see exactly where water is travelling, and going underwater looks like you're in a waterworld because you can no longer see the backside of the water tops.

I have clearly argued my case against backface culling, whereas most arguing for it are just saying "we don't like it". It's a case of visibility: with it, it's easier to see through, but harder to determine where the block actually is. Without it, you can see where exactly the block is, but it's harder to see through with messier textures. With small surfaces, using backface culling is better, but using large surfaces, not using backface culling is better.

Please, reconsider this change and visit MC-34751. It has an in-depth description on why, and also how to reduce the visibility issue. It also describes how it can be changed by resource packs. The fix for this issue so far is a cookie-cutter fix and creates more issues than it fixes.

Jesper the End 2013-10-17T23:07:54Z

The way it was made Ice and glass panes waaaayy darker and backface culling fixed that. Also there was a nasty z-fighting bug. Though I must admit the way it was looked more realistic. But I really want to be able to see trough ice more easily.

insomniac_lemon 2013-10-17T23:34:42Z

Backface culling was not the only way to fix that. All they had to do is process the texture used per-face to be the result of an inverse blending operation. Then, when you look through 2 faces, it is the original alpha value the texture was supposed to be.

Someone made a converter to do this texture-side: http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/1o5991/minecraft_snapshot_13w41a/ccow741

And now that MC-31658 seems to be fixed, we could have used this fix and it would have worked.

_zombiehunter 2013-10-18T05:11:09Z

@Dinnerbone:
Why did you "fix" that? It looked far better and more realistic with all sides visible. I expected glass blocks to be fixed to support transparency and the new rendering method too, instead you do it the other way round???
Please, Dinnerbone, revert this or at least make it optional so we can use it in texturepacks.

_zombiehunter 2013-10-18T11:25:26Z

@Jesper the End, @Dinnerbone:
Glass and ice being too dark is a texture-related problem and can easily changed by adjusting transparency, but doing it by changing the rendering method isn't the right solution, it looks just awful.
I don't understand why this >>> http://i.imgur.com/2yJVzYI.jpg should look better than before in any way (what you can see here are actual glass blocks, not panes!).

EDIT:
The water surface is no longer visible too: http://i.imgur.com/Tunfp6r.jpg (the block is placed exactly at y=63!)
This makes it even worse 😞

Jesper the End 2013-10-18T11:54:27Z

hmm yeah, you guys are right, the problem I'm the most concerned about is slabs/stairs/fences inside transparent blocks
I'm not sure which one I like more the 13w41b one or the 13w42a one
probably the last one

insomniac_lemon 2013-10-18T23:43:26Z

Jesper, enabling backface culling did not "fix" the issue of z-fighting, only got rid of the symptom. Z-fighting is still present in chests (you just don't see it), mob parts too close (like ocelot legs inside their body), mob overlays, and more things when at a distance (like the inside of hoppers when way above them). Z-fighting could be actually solved a few ways (depending on which issue it was), either by ray-tracing, block logic (this block is closer, therefore the back face should be displayed in front of the front face of the other block), or by changing how pieces are placed (for the chest lid and mob-stuff).

I'm not sure how this issue will ever be fixed if it is, but backface culling is not fixing the problem. This is also a performance issue that probably hurts people with lower/older hardware more, and the issue needs to be targeted directly.

EDIT: also, the images you linked to are both the same

Jesper the End 2013-10-19T08:50:30Z

oops, I edited that. z-fighting is not fixed but it is with the translucent blocks, though according to Ezekiel it is not fixed (MC-34644) I just don't know where

_zombiehunter 2013-10-21T11:35:02Z

@Dinnerbone:
What's the status of this now? As I said before, the way you "fixed" it just looks awful, stained glass blocks look like panes now the water surface (seen from underwater) is invisible too. Can you at least make backface culling optional for resource packs ?
The best solution would be to fix MC-34751 ...